REGINA VIDAVER:
SO OUR CHOICE WAS KNOWINGLY SUBJECTING OUR CHILD TO THE TORTURE AND PAIN OF SURGERY AND CHEMOTHERAPY THAT WOULD BE FUTILE. AND HE WOULDN’T KNOW WHY. OR WE COULD PREVENT HIM FROM EVER SUFFERING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
VIDAVER SAYS THE DECISION TO TERMINATE THE PREGNANCY WAS ONLY MADE EASIER WHEN DOCTORS FOUND THE BABY WAS IN HEART FAILURE. ANOTHER WOMAN SPOKE IN SUPPORT OF THE BILL, SAYING DOCTORS RECOMMENDED TERMINATING HER THIRD TRIMESTER PREGNANCY BECAUSE ULTRASOUND SHOWED THE BABY WAS MISSING PART OF HIS BRAIN.

ANNE HAFNER:
THE BOY THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO DIE AFTER BIRTH, THE BOY WHO WOULD NEVER FUNCTION, HE’S ALIVE AND WELL AND NOTHING BUT A JOY TO OUR LIVES. I CANNOT IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF WE ALLOWED OUR SON TO LOSE HIS LIFE TO ABORTION.

BRYCE HAFNER:
PLEASE GIVE KIDS LIKE ME THE CHANCE TO LIVE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. BRYCE HAFNER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO VERY EMOTIONAL ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE. DR. KATHY HARTKE IS CHAIR OF THE WISCONSIN SECTION OF THE AMERICAN CONGRESS OF OBSTETRICIANS AND GYNECOLOGISTS. THAT PHYSCIAN ORGANIZATION ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHERS ACROSS THE STATE OPPOSE THE BAN ON ABORTIONS AFTER 20 WEEKS. DR. HARTKE JOINS US NOW FROM MILWAUKEE. DOCTOR, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

KATHY HARTKE:
THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WELL, SO WE SPOKE WITH SENATOR LAZICH AND SHE SAYS IT IS A SCIENTIFIC FACT THAT BABIES IN UTERO FEEL PAIN STARTING AT 20 WEEKS. I KNOW THAT YOU DISPUTE THAT AND OTHER PHYSICIANS DO AS WELL. HOW DO YOU KNOW?

KATHY HARTKE:
WE HAVE STUDIES FROM THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION AND THE BRITISH COLLEGE OF OBSTETRICIANS AND GYNECOLOGISTS THAT 10,000 DOCTORS IN WISCONSIN HAVE AGREED ARE REPUTABLE, RIGOROUS, SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS. AND IT’S A FACT THAT THEY DO NOT FEEL PAIN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SENATOR LAZICH SUGGESTS THAT YOUR INFORMATION IS FLAWED AND DATED, AND SHE SAYS THAT PHYSICIANS WHO SAY THAT BABIES AT 20 WEEKS CANNOT FEEL PAIN ARE SIMPLY PRO-ABORTION. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

KATHY HARTKE:
THE PROCEDURES THAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT ARE NOT DONE BECAUSE WE WANT TO TERMINATE A PREGNANCY. OUR JOB IS TO HELP BOTH THE MOTHER AND THE FETUS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO PIT ONE AGAINST THE OTHER. THESE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE — WE WOULD MUCH RATHER SAVE BOTH THE MOTHER AND THE WOMAN, BUT SOMETIMES THAT’S JUST NOT POSSIBLE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
I KNOW REPRESENTATIVE JESSE KREMER AND WE HEARD FROM HIM EARLIER IN THIS PROGRAM AND HE’S A COAUTHOR OF THIS BILL TO BAN ABORTIONS AT 20 WEEKS, HE DESCRIBES THIS PROCEDURE AS A FIVE AND A HALF MONTH OLD BABY’S BODY BEING TORN APART. IS THAT WHAT YOU DO?

KATHY HARTKE:
THERE ARE VERY RARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH THAT IS DONE. I AM ONLY AWARE OF TWO IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS WHERE IT WAS THE ONLY OPTION. A MOTHER IN INTENSIVE CARE UNIT WHO’S GOING TO DIE, WHOSE CARDIOLOGIST SAYS YOU CANNOT PUT HER THROUGH LABOR BECAUSE SHE WILL DIE IN THE PROCESS. THE PROCEDURES THAT ARE DONE ARE MEDICAL INDUCTIONS. THAT MEANS WE GIVE THE MOTHER MEDICATION SO THAT SHE GOES INTO LABOR. NOW, I WOULD ARGUE THAT AT 22 WEEKS WHEN THE FETAL BRAIN IS NOT DEVELOPED AND CAN’T FEEL PAIN, HOW CAN THAT BE ANY WORSE THAN A WOMAN GOING THROUGH LABOR AT TERM FOR THE FETUS? ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES CALLED AND SAID, YOU KNOW, SHOULD WE BAN VAGINAL BIRTH FOR WOMEN? IT’S JUST ABSURD TO THINK ABOUT THIS. WE’RE NOT TRYING TO HARM THE BABY. THERE ARE VERY, VERY RARE SITUATIONS FOR WHAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
NOW, YOU DESCRIBE THIS BILL AS CRUEL. HOW SO?

KATHY HARTKE:
IF A MOTHER KNOWS THAT HER BABY IS GOING TO DIE AND SHE HAS WAITED FOR THIS PREGNANCY, MAYBE SHE’S HAD FERTILITY PROBLEMS, MAYBE THIS IS THEIR FIRST CHILD AND SHE’S TOLD YOUR BABY HAS NO CHANCE OF SURVIVAL, IF THERE’S NO BRAIN, IF THERE ARE NO KIDNEYS, IF THEY’VE GOT A GENETIC DISORDER THAT THEY CAN’T BREATHE, IF THEIR BABY’S INTESTINES ARE IN THE CHEST AND THE BABY IS NOT GOING TO SURVIVE AT ALL, NOW SHE’S FORCED TO CARRY A PREGNANCY AND HAVE PEOPLE ASK HER ABOUT HER PREGNANCY, WHEN SHE’S DUE, HOW SHE’S FEELING, AND SHE HAS NO HOPE FOR THIS BABY. IT’S JUST TORTURE FOR HER. BESIDES THAT, IT’S JUST PROLONGING A PROBLEM THAT THERE IS NO HOPE AT ALL, AND IT’S JUST — IT’S NOT PSYCHOLOGICALLY RIGHT TO MAKE A WOMAN DO THAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHAT SHOULD YOUR PATIENTS KNOW IF THIS LAW PASSES?

KATHY HARTKE:
IF YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER — AND WE CAN’T PREDICT EXACTLY WHEN THAT WOULD END, THAT THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT AND THE WAY IT WAS EXPLAINED AT THE COMMITTEE MEETING YESTERDAY, WHERE THEY VOTED TO PASS THIS, THAT WE HAVE NO CHOICE. THE DOCTOR CANNOT SAVE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER. AND THE LEGISLATIVE ATTORNEY INTERPRETED THIS FOR MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE AND SAID IT’S SILENT ON THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER. THIS LAW DOES NOT SAVE THE MOTHER. AND I CAN’T IMAGINE ME AS A PHYSICIAN LETTING A MOTHER DIE WHEN HER BABY HAS NO CHANCE OF SURVIVING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WE NEED TO LEAVE THIS VERY EMOTIONAL ISSUE THERE. DR. HARTKE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THE STATE SENATE IS EXPECTED TO TAKE UP THE 20-WEEK ABORTION BAN AS EARLY AS NEXT WEEK. GOVERNOR WALKER HAS SAID HE WILL SIGN IT. THAT’S ALL FOR TONIGHT’S PROGRAM. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.