Here & Now

Former WI US Attorney Discusses Barr Controversy

Frederica Freyberg:

A federal judge late this week sentenced an associate of President Donald Trump on obstruction and perjury charges related to the Russian election interference investigation. The judge sentenced Roger Stone to three years and four months in prison in a case that saw the president publically interfere, calling sentencing recommendations by justice department attorneys of seven to nine years “a horrible and very unfair situation.” After the president’s tweets and comments, Attorney General William Barr overruled his own prosecutors who then quit the case. More than 2,000 former federal prosecutors and U.S. attorneys have signed on to a letter demanding that William Barr resign saying they strongly condemn his interference in the fair administration of justice. Among those signing on to the call for Barr’s resignation, former U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Wisconsin John Vaudreuil. He joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

John Vaudreuil:

Thank you Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

So I know that President Barack Obama placed you as U.S. Attorney. Is this a situation where your calls and the calls of the others for William Barr to resign, is this political?

John Vaudreuil:

Speaking for me, absolutely not. I signed because I believe we’re a nation of laws, rule of law. And the way prosecutors do that is by making decisions based on the facts, not based on favor, not based on fear, not based on who somebody is or who somebody knows. And I think the decisions in this case and the public statements have damaged that trust with the public.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, you know William Barr. Did this surprise you?

John Vaudreuil:

I met him once and I knew him. I worked under him when he was the attorney general under President Bush and when he was appointed — excuse me, attorney general by President Trump. I thought good. He’s a good lawyer. And I must admit his behavior since he’s become attorney general has surprised me continuously.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why doesn’t, though, a U.S. attorney general have the authority to tell his attorneys what to do in a case?

John Vaudreuil:

Excellent question. And it’s a different situation. He is the boss of the U.S. attorneys. There are cases that you are consulting with the attorney general. You seek approval, terrorism cases, high-level corruption cases like the Stone case. It’s different. And that’s policy. And the president has set policy. Whether it’s President Obama, President Reagan, President Carter, all the presidents I worked for, President Trump. They set policy. But they don’t weigh in on individual cases and put their thumb on the scale of justice. For the attorney general on his own with his own staff to weigh in on a case and discuss it with prosecutors is normal. But to do it, if he did, at the direction of the president is extraordinary.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think he did do it at the direction of the president?

John Vaudreuil:

He says he didn’t. I would like to take people — I’m that kind of person from Wisconsin, I take people at their word. The timing of it is such that I think people could presume that he did do it with the president’s direction.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your expectation that the attorney general will heed your call and resign?

John Vaudreuil:

I think very, very slim to none. I think he is very comfortable. He’s made his public statements to the president. And perhaps that’s enough. Perhaps that puts the Justice Department back on track. I think they have damaged that trust we’re supposed to build with the public and it will take a long time to rebuild that trust.

Frederica Freyberg:

What do you think should he not step down, which you say is unlikely, will be the response of DOJ employees and U.S. attorneys like yourself?

John Vaudreuil:

I think and I hope — and I know a lot of them. These are good people. And I think if they are called to do something they believe is political, they will object. They will resign if need be. They will report any such conduct to the Office of Professional Responsibility and they will keep the department that they love working for justice.

Frederica Freyberg:

How unprecedented is this whole situation?

John Vaudreuil:

It is — I can speak for the 40 years when I was in the Department of Justice. Republican, Democrat presidents. It is totally unprecedented. Certainly publicly. I don’t know what’s gone on behind-the-scenes now and then. But nothing has ever led me to believe that we were making political decisions and telling the people who you are as a defendant matters. Because it’s not supposed to be who you are that matters. Who you know isn’t supposed to matter. And everything the president said in this case says who you are and who you know matters.

Frederica Freyberg:

What would you have done if this happened while you were U.S. attorney here in Wisconsin?

John Vaudreuil:

I think had I — had we worked it through the recommendation just the way it does. Line attorneys work on the case, discuss it with the boss, the U.S. attorney. Discuss it with DOJ and then make their recommendation. And had I been told to change it and had I believed it was at the direction of the president, I would have resigned.

Frederica Freyberg:

What would be the reaction, do you suppose, if the president pardons Roger Stone?

John Vaudreuil:

I think certainly it’s his right and we can — we can’t quibble over things that the president has the right to do. It’s not against the law. As a decision that smacks at justice, I think there will be a large portion of the public that think, sure, the fix was in. And the process played out. Man was sentenced to prison. But his friend, the president, commuted that sentence or pardons him. I think a lot of people in this country will think the fix is in and that’s what is very saddening.

Frederica Freyberg:

John Vaudreuil, thanks very much.

John Vaudreuil:

Thank you.