The Chavis Chronicles

>> Dr. Adrienne Hollis, climate-change and environmental advocate, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

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>> Dr. Adrienne Hollis, an expert in environmental justice and climate justice.

>> Thank you, Dr. Chavis.

However, I think you're the expert.

>> Well, we're pleased to have you on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you.

>> You're originally from Alabama.

>> Yes, from Mobile, Alabama.

>> Alright.

>> Born in Detroit, Michigan.

>> Detroit?

Oh.

How did you first get involved in the environmental area?

Broadly speaking, because I know you also have a law degree.

>> Right.

You know, it started as -- when I was little because, you know, we weren't allowed to go to certain beaches, we being Black people.

It wasn't written, but it was known.

And I remember going to a beach and my mom had purchased a white two-piece for me.

I was a little girl.

>> This is in Alabama?

>> In Mobile.

>> Okay.

>> It was a little beach over the bay, as we call it, on this side of the bay.

And I was in for 5 minutes and it came out black because of the oil and stuff in the water.

>> Really?

>> And I just -- that was my first, I guess -- >> How old were you then?

>> Oh, I must have been eight or nine.

Mm-hmm.

>> But you remember the water was not clean?

>> No, it was not.

I will never forget that.

So because I knew that I wasn't in there long and it never came out.

You know, and it was just a symptom of a bigger problem.

First of all, this is what we had.

This is all we had.

Right?

As opposed to at that time, the big place to go was Pensacola Beach.

Right?

And it wasn't -- Nobody ever said, "Don't go."

But everybody knew that it wasn't a welcoming place.

>> So you got an early understanding of disparities, differentials based on race.

In law schools today, at least, there's some recognition of the importance of environmental law.

I want -- At the very beginning, I want you to describe from your perspective, the intersection between environmental matters and climate-change matters, because as you know in the United States, there's a debate about whether or not there's any scientific proof of climate change.

>> I know and as a scientist, of course, I'm going to say that there is proof.

I mean, this has always been something that I grapple with because we see it every day when we see hurricanes, when we see flooding or chronic flooding.

I mean, you know, the signs are clear.

So I never understood why people are questioning or denying the fact that climate change is real and that I know that it's affecting certain populations first and worse.

And I know that it's going to affect all of us if we don't change, you know, and with environmental -- my environmental law degree, I use to address issues around policy development and make sure that data is -- incorporates community science and that it also specifically looks at communities of color because they're the ones who are impacted and rural communities and poor communities, right, because they have less protections.

>> Well, but why has this become a political issue rather than a purely applied science issue?

>> I think, gosh, that's -- I have a number of answers for that.

But the main answer is profits over people.

You know, most of the deniers are people who are making money from those who pollute.

And so why would they want to agree that pollution is an issue and that we should stop allowing fossil-fuel facilities to continue to operate?

Because they're getting money.

Right?

And you know, from lobbyists or, you know, generally.

So why even, you know, deny that?

And then another reason is because who's being affected right now?

People who have been considered to be disposable, right?

People of color, low income.

So as long as it isn't affecting me -- and this is not me speaking -- this is those, you know, the deniers, "Why should I care?"

or "I'll be dead soon, you know, by the time this becomes an issue, so why should I care?"

when it's really an issue right now that's affecting everyone.

>> Well, there's a growing environmental justice movement, not only in the United States, but throughout the world.

What's your perspective of this growing global consciousness about the relationship between climate and environment?

>> That's a great question, and I think it's great that young people are getting involved, but a part of me feels like -- People have been talking about this for years, you know, even before I became involved.

Right?

Community leaders have been talking about "I can't breathe."

Part of that is because of the pollution itself, but it's also, you know, impacted by climate change.

And they've been saying that.

So I'm glad the young people are involved.

But when we look for leaders, we should be looking at people who've been doing this work historically.

So I'm sort of, you know... >> Ambivalent.

>> Right.

You know?

>> Yeah.

But, you know, I think just again, in terms of -- C.T.

Vivian used to say that a movement is defined as people moving.

What are you seeing as a professional in this area?

Is the pendulum moving in the right direction or you see things as somewhat as a stalemate?

>> I think that things are moving in the right direction.

I think they're moving slowly.

And I don't think they're moving everywhere.

And I have to say, you know, I like the fact that -- I have to go back for a step.

>> Sure.

Go ahead.

>> Young people are involved because I feel like the two groups together work synergistically or should be working together.

Right?

Because young people have that energy and new ideas and innovative ideas, and then people who've been doing this work have historical knowledge and what didn't work and why it didn't work and what we should be doing and what needs to be doing and what we've been experiencing.

And so I think that it's not -- it shouldn't be a them and us.

It should be us together.

But I also think that when it comes to recognition, people have been working really hard.

And I think that the work that has been done has been great.

But I think I want things to move at the speed of right.

You know?

>> Yes.

>> I mean, where we are today is if you look at the legislation and whatever, that's great, but I want more.

So I don't know if that's -- I think that the people I work with, my colleagues, my friends feel the same way.

This is great, but we want more.

We need more.

>> Do you see emerging some of these new leaders from our communities also?

>> Well, that's a great question.

You know, I do -- I'm thinking -- I can't remember her name.

There was a young woman of color with Greta at one point who's a leader internationally.

Here in this country, we have a lot of young people out there, you know, doing the good work.

>> Activists?

>> Mm-hmm.

Activists and advocates who are out there doing the work.

And I think that a lot of people, some are operating from maybe they need a little more information, but a lot of people are really working with other leaders and, you know, getting that knowledge, laying that foundation and doing the work.

And I think that they're so passionate.

And, you know, those are the ones you want.

Do we need more?

Absolutely.

You know, but I do see them.

We don't have -- I don't think we have a Greta, like one.

I think we have a lot of people who -- a lot of young voices that we need to be paying attention to who are just doing great things and starting their own organizations and initiatives and being innovative.

>> I think you're really qualified to answer this question.

From your perspective, what are the top three things that Americans should be focused on over the next five years to improve the quality of life of our communities vis--vis the climate?

>> The first answer is focusing on eradicating racism.

I know that's the hardest thing, but that's the biggest thing because once people start addressing that, acknowledging it and stop denying that it exists, then we can start addressing things like climate change and environmental injustice because all of those are based on race, right?

They're based on redlining and all of those other racist practices.

So let's acknowledge that it exists and start working to make ourselves better.

Right?

That's the first thing.

The second thing is, you know, I'm all about the precautionary principle.

If you think there's a problem, you need to address it right away.

>> That's called a precautionary principle?

>> Right.

In science, right?

Which is similar to the medical I think the oath, "do no harm.

"First, do no harm."

Right?

And I think that we -- people have been speaking and talking about issues that they've had of suffering, you know, deaths and all of that.

And people and those in positions of power haven't really been listening.

They're listening now.

A lot of people are listening now.

But I think we need to think about not just ourselves, but be empathetic to others and think about what they're going through and then come up with solutions that address that, right?

That address climate change and chronic flooding and the fact that people live in areas that flood but they can't afford insurance because the insurance agencies want them to raise their homes 10 feet and they don't have the money to raise their homes 10 feet.

So when there's another incidence, what happens?

They flood again.

And then if we have another COVID, what happens?

They have to live in homes that have mold and mildew that will exacerbate any existing conditions.

Right?

So I want us to have more empathy for others.

And that stems from seeing us all as equal.

Right?

We're back to racism.

And then I want -- and as a part of that, I want us to think about the effects of climate gentrification, a term that was coined from a community member about what happens when you move, you, person who has money, into a community and raise the property values?

What happens to the community that lived there before?

Let's stop saying "I don't care.

They need to just leave" and think about where they're going and how that affects their, you know, economic, you know, their abilities to improve their economic situation.

Right?

This whole generational wealth and all of those things.

So those are some things that -- I could go on, but I won't.

>> No, I think those are three -- at least now at the United Nations, as you know, for the first time, they actually have policies being developed, global policies being developed on climate change, global policies that are being developed on environmental justice.

How do you see these international platforms getting insight from some of the indigenous struggles here in the United States on issues of climate and environment?

>> You know, I think the international space is ahead of us, actually, because of the last administration.

The sustainability goals that you mentioned, the U.N. sustainability, those are amazing, right?

I personally think that -- I'm always going to say that there needs to be done -- there needs to be more done on environmental justice issues because we see those concerns and challenges across the board, across the world.

Right?

You see the same pattern.

Minority communities, people of color are the ones affected.

People who are migrating are, for the most part, poor people, people of color.

And I think that the fact that -- I went to my first COP and I wanted more.

I wanted them to do more around environmental justice.

And that's what I'm hoping for with COP27.

Right?

And so I think that the international arena is more open to make change.

Because if you think about it here, there are still areas -- have we shut down many fossil-fuel facilities in Cancer Alley?

>> No.

>> Because I don't think so.

>> Cancer Alley is in Louisiana between New Orleans and Baton Rouge?

>> Right.

And I think they're still approving permits, if I'm not mistaken, which I don't even understand.

>> Well, I think the Biden-Harris administration has put a moratorium now, but certainly during the Trump administration, those licenses were fully granted.

>> Exactly.

And I think there was, if you recall, there was a point where the decision was made not to fine facilities during COVID if they had releases and they could -- if they could show that it was based on COVID, which I was thinking, "I wonder if they just say, 'Oh, well, COVID was the reason we had a release of contaminant in this community.'"

>> I want to know how you feel about engaging new forms of energy.

I know the American automobile industry now is moving toward electric cars.

How do you see not just energy conservation, but new forms of energy being a part of the climate-change movement and also being a part of the environmental-justice movement?

>> I'm fully in support of that, of renewable energy and bringing, you know, all types of renewable energy in.

But I think when you talk about environmental justice, we need to think about things like infrastructure.

Can a home actually sustain having solar panels or, you know, if right now people aren't even using their heat or air conditioning because, one, they can't afford it, the energy burden is too high or two, they're heating the outdoors instead of heating the inside of the homes or cooling the inside of the home?

>> Because the homes are not insulated?

>> Exactly.

That's an issue.

Right?

>> I'm glad you mentioned the infrastructure bill.

It's one of the few bipartisan bills that passed the Congress supported by both Republicans and Democrats.

And, of course, part of the infrastructure bill is to get rid of all these lead pipes.

How is that unfolding?

Are we really getting at these, replacing these cancer-causing lead pipes for drinking water?

>> I think that is necessary.

We have so many Flint, Michigans, around that it's ridiculous.

And it's also ridiculous that Flint, Michigan, still doesn't have safe drinking water.

Right?

I mean, how long has that been?

But they still -- I think they still pay their water bill.

>> Well, for four years, they were in denial that they had a problem.

>> Right.

>> To wit, why these movements for environmental justice and movements for climate justice are so important.

I tell people all the time, it's a matter of life and death.

>> Literally, literally is so.

>> So what gives you your greatest hope?

>> What really gives me hope is that the communities themselves are taking leadership over issues instead of waiting.

Like, they realize there is no cavalry, as Vernice says, right?

There's no cavalry coming.

They are the cavalry, and they're doing innovative things themselves.

You know, I have a community in South Carolina that has started working with a company to pull water out of the atmosphere with solar-hydro panels because they have a water issue in extreme-weather events.

Right?

And flooding.

And then you have other communities that are just coming up with solutions to problems instead of waiting for, you know, waiting for assistance.

That gives me hope because I -- and I feel like community science has become more accepted, not enough, but more accepted than before, because that's a lot of information right there, a lot of data that people have that we'll never, you know, be able to replicate, a lot of knowledge of the past.

>> I'm glad to hear you say that, Dr. Hollis, because we need more of that information.

We need more of those good news stories.

>> That's right.

>> And we need experts like you, Dr. Hollis, experts like you to help grassroots communities come up with not something that's too complicated, but something that's adequate to deal with the transformation that needs to take place.

>> Thank you for that.

And I think that they're doing it on their own, too, because the same community I just told you about -- >> This is in South Carolina?

>> In South Carolina.

They were able to get the polluter -- I want to say -- I don't want to say who it is because I don't know who it is.

I'm thinking I think I know who it is.

But I don't want to be wrong -- to, after five years of arguing with them and asking for this, to get them to build a solar farm for the community.

Right?

>> Yes.

>> And then I'm not sure if they were able to.

I know that they were fighting to get them to then pay for the hookup of I think it was 1,500 low-income families.

That's a big thing in a community.

Right?

And I think that the number of activists, the number of people in the community who are so outraged, while people were always outraged, but the number that have become more vocal has increased substantially.

And that's what we need, right, where they're actually in their community, demanding things.

And oh, and by the way, when you put this solar farm in, just know that we're still going to be watching you and we're still going to sue you, if necessary, for the pollution that you're causing because, you know, but you should do this.

Aside from that, this isn't you buying us off, right?

This is you doing what you should be doing anyway.

>> Again, it seems to me, in our struggles for freedom, justice and equality, I have found it is much more effective to have all of the stakeholders at the table.

>> Yes.

>> To come up with a solution that everybody participates, you know, the former polluter, the community that has been polluted, the government agencies, the activist community, and the religious community.

You know, I guess the point that we're trying to drive with you being on our program is that when it comes to climate justice or environmental justice, this is something that we all have to participate in.

It's just not left to the activists.

It's just not left to the petrochemical companies.

This is something that everybody has to be involved in because at the end of the day, we're talking about what affects all human life.

Not some people's human life.

All people's human life.

And that's why, in my view, Dr. Hollis, we need more people like you.

And I don't want you to get weary, you know?

I know that you people like Vernice Miller and all -- there's a whole long list of activists, and I know that sometimes even myself, activists also, you know... need to be revitalized.

>> That's right.

>> You know, it's hard to be on the front line every day, every year in every place.

However, the good news is there are many young people, as you've noted, who are not only crying out for a better way of life.

They want to participate.

And I think those that have experience, like your experience, if we can avail -- for example, do you have any mentees, any apprentice that you are helping to kind of usher in to learn from all of -- Because you had mentors.

I had mentors.

I think each generation has to reach back to open those doors for the next generation to take that baton and not just run the race, but run the race to win the race.

>> I do have mentees that -- well, they call themselves mentees.

I don't.

But you know, and one I just finished -- I was talking to her just today about the work that she does.

And another thing about the younger people is that they think they're not qualified to do certain things.

But you are.

You know, what is it that makes you qualified?

You don't have to have degrees.

You have to have passion, right?

You have to really believe in a thing or really think something is unfair.

That's what you need in order to do this work.

>> I agree; I think you have to have passion.

But listen, you have a law degree and you have other degrees.

And when you are educated, when you have those degrees like your law degree, it can make a big difference.

>> And, Dr. Chavis, you're right.

But I do want to say that when I -- When I first -- When I got my PhD., I was at -- maybe I shouldn't -- at this Ivy League school for my postdoc.

>> Okay.

>> And I'm thinking, "I'm Dr. Hollis now," you know?

"And I can make change and whatever."

And I remember as a postdoc wearing jeans and whatever, making diet for my animals.

And a guy who happened to be a white guy yelled at me down the hall that I didn't empty his garbage because I happened to have a garbage bag full of diet.

>> He thought you were a cleaning lady.

>> And that's when it -- I don't know if -- I knew it, but I guess it hit me in the face that that changes nothing.

When people see you, they see you, they see color, and that's fine.

But don't assume.

>> Right.

>> Right?

I recall somebody said once with the community, "He's smarter than I thought he was."

>> Right, but just go back to that.

He may have had that misperception of you.

But you had your PhD.

And that's something nobody can take away from you.

>> That's true.

>> Okay?

So I just want you to encourage other young brothers and sisters, go get their doctorate, go get their law degree.

Have that passion you're talking about because there's a whole wide world out here.

One of the things, Dr. Hollis -- we can end on this point -- there's plenty of room in the movement.

It's not overcrowded.

Am I right?

>> You are so right.

There's room for everybody.

We need more help.

>> Dr. Adrienne Hollis, activist, front-line crusader for environmental justice and climate justice, thank you so much... >> Thank you for having me.

>> ...for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, please visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we are committed to diversity and understand our responsibility in supporting and empowering diverse communities.

Diversity and inclusion is integral to the way we work.

Supporting the financial health of our diverse customers and employees is one of the many ways we remain invested in inclusion for all today, tomorrow, and in the future.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to empowering people to choose how they live as they age.