Amanpour and Company

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS NOT BEING RACIST IS NOT ENOUGH, HE SAYS WE NEED TO BE ANTIRACISTS. HE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT. HE JOINS US FOR A CONVERSATION IN HOW HIS BATTLE WITH CANCER SHAPED HIS VIEWS. IT STARTED IN THE POLITICAL CONTEXT. >> YOU WATCHED IOWA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, AND YOU RECENTLY WROTE BEFORE THESE CONTESTS, WHY I FEAR A MODERATE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, SOME ARE AFRAID OF NOMINATING A PROGRESSIVE, BUT A MODERATE MAY BE MORE LIKELY TO ENSURE TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION, WHY? >> ONE OF THE SWING VOTERS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THOSE ARE SWING VOTERS SWINGING FROM REPUBLICAN TO DEMOCRAT. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DATA ON THESE SPECIFIC VOTERS YOU SEE FS VOTERS WHO WERE LIBERAL. AND ALSO WON ABOUT 38% OF WHITE WORKING CLASS VOTERS WHO WANTED POLICIES MORE LIBERAL THAN OBAMA. SO PART OF HIS PITCH IS TO THE WHITE WORKING CLASS MAKING THIS CASE THAT NOT ONLY DOES HE SHARE THEIR CULTURAL AND RACIAL IDEAS BUT HE'S PRESUMABLY COMPARED TO A MODERATE MORE PROGRESSIVE. THAT'S HOW HE PUTS HIMSELF PA RR AND DOMESTIC POLICY. THE OTHER SIDE IS WHAT I CALL THE OTHER SWING VOTERS. THESE ARE VOTERS SWINGING BETWEEN VOTING DEMOCRAT AND NOT VOTING AT ALL. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS POPULATION -- M NOT SP PEHOE. PEOPLE WHO SOMETIMES VOTE AND SOMETIMES DON'T -- >> THEY CAME OUT FOR OBAMA. >> PRECISELY. THEY CAME OUT FOR OBAMA AND DID NOT COME OUT IN 2016 FOR HILLARY CLINTON AND SOME OF THEM VOTED IN THE 2018 ELECTION. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS GROUP, THEY'RE PREDOMINANTLY YOUNGER AND PREDOMINANTLY PEOPLE OF COLOR AND ESPECIALLY YOUNG BLACK VOTERS. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT SPECIFIC GROUP OF VOTERS THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO FAVOR PROGRESSIVE POLICIES. SO THEN IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A MORE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE WILL ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO WIN THOSE OTHER SWING VOTERS AND THEN EVEN A PORTION OF WHITE SWING VOTERS AS WELL. >> THERE SEEMS TO BE A COMMONALITY THAT YOU POINT OUT AND OBAMA'S CANDIDACIES SUCCEEDED IN THAT APPROACHING T NECESSARILY AS TOTAL OUTSIDERS, BUT CHANGE AGENTS. >> WITHOUT QUESTION. I MEAN, THAT WAS THEIR PITCH. THAT WAS THEIR BRAND. THIS WAS, IN A SENSE, THE CAMPAIGN. OBVIOUSLY TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN WAS TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, RIGHT. AND IF WE ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT OBAMA'S SORT OF THREE WORD SORT OF SLOGAN, "YES WE CAN," ONE OF THE THINGS I DID IN THE PIECE IS I PUT THOSE TOGETHER, YES, WE CAN MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. THE REASON WHY IT WAS CRITICAL IS BECAUSE OBAMA CAST HIMSELF AS A CHANGE AGENT IN CONTRAST TO, OBVIOUSLY, A MITT ROMNEY. D 2 RGUEWAMORE OF AN ESTABLISHMF FIGURE. IN THE SAME COMPARISON, TRUMP PRESENTED HIMSELF AS A CHANGE AGENT IN CONTRAST TO PRESENTING HILLARY CLINTON AS AN ESTABLISHMENT FIGURE. AND SO, IN THE LAST REALLY THREE ELECTION CYCLES FOR PRESIDT, IT'S BEEN THE CHANGE AGENTS WHO'S BEEN CALLING FOR MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF CHANGE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN MORE LIKELY TO EXCITE VOTERS. >> YOU WROTE A BOOK RECENTLY, A HOW-TO BOOK, HOW TO BE AN ANTI-RACIST, NOT A NON-RACIST. I WANT YOU TO READ THE PASSAGE HERE FROM THE FRONT OF THE BOOK WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS. >> THIS IS THE INTRODUCTION. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH BEING NOT RACIST? IT IS A CLAIM THAT SIGNIFIES NE. I AM NOT A RACIST, BUT NEITHER AM I AGAINST RACISM. THERE IS NO NEUTRALITY IN THE RACISM STRUGGLE. THE OPPOSITE OF RACIST ISN'T NOT WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? IDEA OF RACIAL HIERARCHY AS A RACIST OR RACIAL EQUALITY AS AN ANTI-RACIST. ONE EITHER BELIEVES PROBLEMS ARE ROOTED IN GROUPS OF PEOPLE AS A RACIST OR LOCATES THE ROOTS OF PROBLEMS IN POWER AND POLICIES AS AN ANTI-RACIST. ONE EITHER ALLOWS RACIAL UIRSEV RACIST OR CONFRONTS INEQUITIES AS AN ANTI-RACIST. THERE'S NO IN BETWEEN SAFE SPACE OF NOT RACIST. THE CLAIM OF NOT RACIST NEUTRALITY IS A MASK FOR RACISM. STHERISD, THAT'S CLEAR IN WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU'RE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY WHAT HAS BEEN CALLED THE "R" WORD, A PEJORATIVE, ALMOST A SLUR, AND PERSPECTIVE AND YOU WANT PEOPLE TO START TO FOCUS ON THE IDEAS AND THE ACTS INSTEAD OF JUST THE PEOPLE, RIGHT? >> YEAH. I THINK MANY AMERICANS SAY THAT THEY'RE NOT RACIST BECAUSE BEE EE REALLY, THAT A RACIST IS ESSENTIALLY A BAD PERSON. THAT IF YOU ADMIT YOU'RE RACIST, YOU'LL ALWAYS BE A RACIST. AND THAT'S LIKE TATTOOING THE "R" WORD ON YOUR FOREHEAD. AND WE APPARENTLY HAVE RACIST BONES IN OUR BODIES, WHICH ALLOW SOME PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, TO SAY I DON'T HAVE A RACIST BONE IN MY BODY. WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THIS IS AN ESSENTIAL TERM.CO AT. WHAT I SHOW IN MY WORK IS NO ONE BECOMES A RACIST OR ANTI-RACIST. PEOPLE CHANGE. IF AT ONE POINT THEY'RE SAYING A GROUP IS INFERIOR, THEY'RE RACIST. IF THEY'RE SUPPORTING A POLICY SUPPORTING EQUITY, THEY'RE BEING ANTI-RACIST. THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT RACIST AND ANTI-RACIST POLICIES. BECAUSE OF THAT WE CAN'T LABEL THEM PERMANENTLY. WE CAN ONLY SAY WHAT THEY'RE BEING IN EACH MOMENT.OU THAT RACISM DOESN'T NECESSARILY COME FROM JUST IGNORANCE. THERE ARE OTHER DRIVERS. WHAT ARE OTHER MOTIVATIONS BESIDES IGNORANCE? >> I THINK WE'RE LIVING IN A PERFECT EXAMPLE IN WHICH, FOR INSTANCE, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MANY CASES BECAUSE THEY DECIDED TO NOT OPEN UP THEIR TENT TO PEOPLE OF COLOR, THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE COUNTRY ARE MOVING AWAY FROM THEM. AND SO, WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH VOTES TO WIN, THERE'S ONLY ONE ALTERNATIVE, YOU PP. YOU FIGURE OUT WAYS TO SUPPRESS THE VOTES OF YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENTS. SO REPUBLICANS IN MANY CASES HAVE SUPPORTED VOTER SUPPRESSION POLICIES FROM VOTER ID LAWS, TO ROLLS. BUT THEN THEY HAD TO HAVE A JUSTIFICATION FOR THOSE POLICIES THAT THEY INSTITUTED OUT OF SELF-INTEREST. AND THAT SORT OF -- THAT JUSTIFICATION WAS RACIST IDEAS. OF COLOR IN PHILADELPHIA AND EV ACTUALLY FRAUDULENT, THAT THEY'RE CORRUPTING THE VOTING S. THERE'S A LONG HISTORY OF CLASSIFYING VOTERS OF COLOR AS CORRUPT. AND WHITE VOTERS AS, OF COURSE, NOT CORRUPT. THEN THEY HAD TO CREATE A JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT. AND THAT JUSTIFICATION WAS RACIST IDEA. SO YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY THE POLITICAL SELF-INTEREST LEADING TO THESE RACIST VOTER SUPPRESSION POLICIES AND THEN THE POLICIES LEADING TO RACIST IDEAS TO JUSTIFY THEM. THEN YOU ADD REGULAR OLD AMERICANS WHO CONSUME THOSE RACIST IDEAS, DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE BEING MANIPULATED AND STARTED BELIEVING THERE WAS A. >> THERE'S ALSO THIS THROUGH LINE OF ANTI-WHITE RACISM JUSTIFICATION. IT'S PUL. IT'S ALSO SOMETHING THAT CREATES A SORT OF DIVISIVENESS IN WHITES TODAY. HOW DO YOU BECOME AN ANTI-RACIST IN THAT CONTEXT? >> I THINK PART OF THE SORT OF NCECIAIN DECADES OF REVERSE DISCRIMINATION AS IT WAS CALLED BEFORE AND NOW MORE ANTI-WHITE RACISM SUCH THAT A MAJORITY OF WHITE AMERICANS STATED THAT WHITE PEOPLE WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST THAN ANY OTHER GROUP. I THINK THAT STEMS FROM HOW PEOPLE ARE CONCEIVING OF AND DEFINING A RACIST POLICY. SO TYPICALLY AMERICANS OF ALL CS RACIST OR DISCRIMINATORY BASED ON WHETHER IT HAS RACIAL LANGUAGE IN THE POLICY OR BASED ON THE INTT KE THEUT. SO IF WE WERE TO DEFINE RACIST POLICIES AS RACIST BY THEIR OUTCOME, WHAT WE WOULD THEN SEE THE OUTCOME OF MANY OF THESE POLICIES ARE WHITE PEOPLE BEING ON THE HIGHER END OF THOSE OUTCOMES.AGAIN IF WE'RE DETERMI BY THE ACTUAL POLICY ITSELF AND THAT THEN ALLOWS A WHITE AMERICAN TO SAY, ISN'T, FOR INSTANCE, AFFIRMATTI ANTI-WHITE, AND THEN THAT WOULD CAUSE PEOPLE LIKE ME TO SAY, WELL, ISN'T A STANDARDIZED SET OF POLICIES ANTI-BLACK BECAUSE OF THE OUTCOME. IT'S LEADING TO RACIAL DISPARITIES WHERE WHITE PEOPLE ARE ON THE HIGHER END.THING I T NEED TO REALIZE IS WE SHOULD BE DEFINING POLICIES AS RACIST BASED ON OUTCOMES.IFLENJ, THEN IT'S RACIST. I THINK YOU HAVE MANY WHITE AMERICANS WHO ARE NOT ON THE END OF THESE POLICIES, THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS THAT'S VERY CRITICAL IS YOU ACTUALLY DO HAVE POLICIES THAT ARE HARMING WHITE AMERICANS, THAT ARE HARMING WHITE AMERICANS DISPROPORTIONATELY AND SOME OF THOSE POLICIES WHITE AMERICANS ARE ACTUALLY SUPPORTING. TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE, THE ROLLBACK ON GUN CONTROL POLICIES VERAST SPIKE IN WHITE MALE SUICIDE BY HANDGUN. >> WHILE YOU'RE WRITING THIS BOOK, JUST BEFORE YOUR WIFE GOES NCER AND WHILE YOU'RE WRITING THIS, YOU GET DIAGNOSED WITH STAGE 4 COLON CANCER, HOW DOES THAT CHANGE THE PROCESS FOR YOU? WHAT YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT? HOW YOU WERE WRITING?>>T S LO I THINK IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO WRITE THIS BOOK. I THINK IT WAS DIFFICULT BECAUSE MANY WAYS THE BOOK IS ANCHORED ON MY OWN PERSONAL STORY. OSTORF IN THE '90s CONSUMING ALL THIS ANTI-BLACKNESS, ALL THESE BELIEFS THAT I HAD THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH BLACK PEOPLE AND THEN MY STORY OF ESSENTIALLY JOURNEYING AWAY FROM THOSE EARLIER IDEAS. OBVIOUSLY, AS A BLACK PERSON, IT WAS VERY SHAMEFUL AND PAINFUL FOR ME TO ADMIT AND CHRONICLE THOSE IDEAS. AND SO, I WAS IN A WAY FIGHTING MYSELF WHEN I WAS WRITING THE FIRST FIVE CHAPTERS OF THE BOOK CANCER, WITH STAGE FOUR COLON CANCER, AT THAT POINT I WAS LIKE I JUST WANT TO FINISH. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I'LL SEE IT TO BEING PUBLISHED.I JUST WTOH. SO ALL OF THAT ANXIETY, ALL OF THAT FIGHTING WITH MYSELF, ALL OF THAT SHAME WENT AWAY. AND I WAS FOCUSSED ON WRITING. >> YOU WRITE THIS PASSAGE, IT WOULD BE 20 YEARS AGO YOU'RE GIVING THIS SPEECH ON MLK DAY, AND NOW WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THAT SPEECH, WHAT DO YOU SEE IN YOURSELF THAT WAS OFF? >> SO I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS I CAME OF AGE IN THE 1990s. IF THERE WAS EVER A DECADE IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN BLACK YOUTH WERE CONSIDERED AMERICA'S. AND SO BLACK YOUTH WERE CONSTANTLY SORT OF DEGRADED AND DENIGRATED AND WE WERE TOLD WE WERE TOO VIOLENT, WE WERE TOLD WE DIDN'T VALUE EDUCATION, WE OLVI B. WE WERE TOLD ALL DIFFERENT TYPES OF THINGS ABOUT WHAT WAS WRONG WITH US AS A GROUP. AS THE DECADE WENT ON, I CONSUMED MANY OF THOSE IDEAS, WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING IT, ULTIMATELY WHEN I GAVE THAT SPEECH 20 YEARS AGO, I EXPRESSED MANY OF THOSE IDEAS. AND THE WHOLE SPEECH, FOR THE MOST PART, WAS ABOUT ALL THE THINGS WRONG WITH BLACK YOUTH AND HOW MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. WOULD BE VERY ANGRY WITH BLACK YOUTH BECAUSE OF THE THINGS WE'RE DOING WRONG, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT LIVING UP TO HIS DREAM. >> YOU'RE IN HIGH SCHOOL AT THIS TIME? >> I WAS A SENIOR IN HIGH. AND, OF COURSE, RECALLING THAT I'M FILLED WITH SHAME, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I SHOULD HAVE REALIZED OR I SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAUGHT LL SOMETHING WRONG AS A GROUP -- WITH BLACK YOUTH AS A GROUP AND EVERYTHING WRONG WITH WHAT BLACK YOUTH WERE FACING. THEY WERE FACING THE HIGHEST RATES OF UNEMPLOYMENT IN THE '90s, THE HIGHEST RATES OF INCARCERATION. THEY WERE FACING ALL THESE STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS THAT WERE HARMING THEM. THEY WERE BEING ENSNARED AS OPPOSED TO THEM ENSNARING THE TR >> IN THE LAST CHAPTER OF THE BOOK YOU TALK ABOUT THE INTERMINGLING OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF RACISM AND CANCER. TO FIGHT RACISM LIKE THERE ARE WAYS TO FIGHT CANCER. HOW DID THIS CHANGE YOUR THINKING? >> I THINK IT GAVE ME A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF CLARITY ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CANCER AND RACISM AND HOW WE CAN FIGHT CANCER AND RACISM, ESPECIALLY METASTATIC CANCER AND METASTATIC RACISM THAT SPREAD TO EVERY PART OF OUR BODY POLITIC. I THINK THE FIRST STEP WITH BOTH IS ACKNOWLEDGING THE DIAGNOSES. ACKNOWLEDGING, IT'S VERY, VERY HARD, PARTICULARLY SOMEONE LIKE ME, I WAS IN MY MID 30s, DIDN'T SMOKE AND DRINK, I WAS A VEGAN AND SOMEONE COMING IN AND TELLING ME I HAVE STAGE 4 COLON CANCER, IT WAS VERY HARD FOR ME TO ACCEPT BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS HEALTHY. JUST AS MANY AMERICANS WHO FELT THEY WERE DOING RIGHT BY SAY PEOPLE OF COLOR, IT'S HARD TO ACCEPT THE DIAGNOSIS THAT THEY TOO ARE BEING RACIST. RSAC THE DIAGNOSIS IS CRITICAL BECAUSE HOW DO WE GO ABOUT HEALING IF WE DON'T ADMIT THERE'S A PROBLEM? IF WE GET THROUGH THAT WE GET AT RACISM LIKE WE GO THROUGH IT'S GOING IN AND SURGICALLY REMOVING THE RACIST POLICIES FROM OUR INSTITUTIONS, OUR COMMUNITIES IN THE WAY SURGEONS REMOVE SURGICALLY THE TUMORS. BUT THEN THEY DON'T STOP THERE. THEY FLOOD THE BODY WITH SYSTEMIC TREATMENT, WHICH IS CHEMOTHERAPY TO REDUCE THE CANCER CELLS THEY CAN'T SEE TO PROTECT AGAINST A REOCCURRENCE OF CANCER. IN THE SAME WAY WE CAN FLOOD THE BODY WITH ANTI-RACIST POLICIES THAT CAN ELIMINATE THE REMAINING LLS INEY TO PROTECT AGAINST TH EN DTORSP THERE. THEY MAKE SURE THEY WATCH AND FOLLOW THE BODY VERY CLOSELY TO ENSURE THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE A REOCCURRENCE. REOCCURRENCE, WHAT DO THEY DO? THEY AGGRESSIVELY TREAT. ALL THE WHILE THEY'RE ENCOURAGING THE CANCER SURVIVOR TO EAT WELL, RIGHT, TO EXERCISE, WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO ESY, TG AND RECOGNIZING THE WORLD FROM AN ANTI-RACIST STANDPOINT. RECOGNIZING THAT THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY INEQUITIES BECAUSE THE RACIAL GROUPS ARE EQUALS. >> THANKS SO MUCH. >> YOU'RE WELCOME.